well, the obama administration doesn't torture. and he's said that. >> he said that soon after he came into power. >> yes, he did, in fact -- >> and you believe him? >> i do. and in fact, he was instrumental in arguing for and then, as president, releasing the legal justifications that the bush administration had relied on to conduct the program and opened them to the light of day. and they were reviewed and harshly criticized. in fact, some of the authors were even considered for censure. the fact of the matter is the two branches of government set up to keep a watchful eye on the president in these areas, have a lot of trouble doing it for a variety of reasons. the courts have trouble taking these cases. there are so many constitutional and common law and statutory limitations on their ability to hear, even hear these questions, never mind resolve them, that we're not -- we don't know what the constitutional outcome is, because the courts aren't ruling on it. >> i'm not convinced that the u.s. doesn't torture at this moment just